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Old 06-08-2016, 03:05 PM
srspicer srspicer is offline
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Default A true 'scratch' build?

Greeting All,

Question; not be a trouble maker but, I just want to know has the definition been changed? If you are using grown parts, then IMO, it is not a scratch build. Yes it takes knowledge to create the files, but you are not making each part, a computer is. ( you made the file from scratch ) You are more creating a personal kit. For me, a scratch build means all components are created by hand. There is of course the use of purchased items such as spheres, styrene shapes, kit parts, etc. and machines to turn, cut and mill parts to make them accurate and fit properly in a scratch build model, but for me a grown part does not represent a hand shaped, carved or even milled part.

Computers save us time and money, but learning and skills suffer.

I know, is it any different than using rubber molds to make multiples of a part? I think so, if the multiples are grown.

I just want other opinions on the subject.

There is a lack of appreciation & learning about model making if a person is constantly having components or complete models grown to then assemble as a 'scratch build'. Learning the best way & materials to design and make a certain shape or part is lost. I think it is vital to keep traditional model making skills alive in a 'growing' computer controlled world.

I think it is also important when judging contests. To label an entry as a scratch build, one assumes that there is not a liberal use of grown or purchased elements in an entry.

I wonder what Shepard Paine would think?
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Old 06-08-2016, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

I kind of agree with you on a few points, but some of your points sound like certain assumptions were made. Of which I'll probably put a Kenworth thu.

In this age I think the IPMS rules may need an update. I agree that using grown parts designed by myself or someone else are like you say, making a personally designed kit or kit parts. You are using a computer aided engineering program to create model parts. However, by using hands kills you are doing the exact same thing. Instead of the computer, you are using rulers, calipers, cutting, sanding etc. to engineer model parts. Making an argument that making parts by hand and making parts by computer are completely different is merely semantics. The process is different but the results are the same. I may have read it wrong (and if I have I'm sorry in advance), but you seem to be implying "well, you had a computer make those parts. I made these with my own two hands! And that's more awesome then getting a computer to do it for you!"

Time for the Kenworth.

" Yes it takes knowledge to create the files, but you are not making each part, a computer is. ( you made the file from scratch )"

I get the impression that you haven't actually done any computer modeling of any sort from this statement. This statement gives me the feeling that you think its very simple, clicking a mouse here and there and its done or something. Making a part in Solidworks , you are making the part. Computers don't 'do' anything. You have to understand how to control the computer program to get it to do what you want. And if you do it wrong, the part will be wrong if the computer can resolve it at all. Just like ANY TOOL, it is useless without knowledge of how to manipulate it to do as you wish. A 5-axis mill is a wonderful tool, but its a lump of metal without the knowledge to use it.

And speaking of milled parts....

"For me, a scratch build means all components are created by hand. There is of course the use of purchased items such as spheres, styrene shapes, kit parts, etc. and machines to turn, cut and mill parts to make them accurate and fit properly in a scratch build model, but for me a grown part does not represent a hand shaped, carved or even milled part. "

So milling bits yerself (on a mill or lathe while we're at it) would count as scratchbuilt? Fair enough, I'll agree with that. That does take skill. So what if the part were made on a lathe or mill controlled by a computer (CNC baby)? Is it still scratchbuilt as you define it, is it now more like a grown part (CNC and 3D printing go together like ugly on moose) and therefore 'you didn't make it, the computer did'?

You say computers save us time and money. Yep, exactly right. But wouldn't that mean that the contrary to that is hand skills take time and cost more money? I'm not against that, because in my mind where the journey takes you is up to you. But the next part, the skills and learning suffer part, I take issue with. It comes off as a statement of fact, but I'll let go as an incomplete statement. It should read, "computers save us time and money, but learning about hand skills suffer."

Why the change? Saying learning and skills suffer is find too broad of a blanket statement. Learning to do this sort of work in 3D isn't the simplest thing in the world. It takes just as much brains as hand skills to make it work properly (possibly more so). Yes hand skills might suffer but you are learning new skills in new techniques in manufacturing.

I agree that there is a lack of appreciation for the traditional model techniques. But new machinery has given rise to new forms of interest and hobby and art. Digital art for example these days is amazing and worthy or much respect. I think there is too much worry about how something is made and not enough worry about how well something is made. For me it's more about is it amazing or isn't it?

AS for the appreciation lost part, blaming that loss completely on 3D printing's ease is like blaming violence in school on video games. Might be a factor but in reality it isn't biggest factor. I've heard too many stories about hardcore scratch builders being snooty better than thou types expecting you to kiss their feet before they show you to how to use a file. Who wants to deal with that stupidiness? Nobody is the short answer. Not saying you're one of those types at all and from what I seen here you aren't, but you have to admit guys like that aren't helping your cause. On the flip side of that in my neck of the world there is a gent from Quebec who is a amazing scratch builder who is very friendly and would bent over backwards to help out. He's the type of guy who inspires other around him.

As for judging, like I said earlier I agree that its more like making a plastic model part. Just like adding resin cockpits to planes and interiors to tanks, and PE to everything.

Hand skills might maybe a dying art (MAYBE), but things do die for a reason. Personally, there weren't many scratch-builders before 3D printing and that isn't gonna change. All 3D printing has really done is make getting custom parts easier for the masses to make and get. That ease isn't gonna chase the scratch built crowd away. I argue that 3D printed stuff might add a few to the scratch-built ranks as a few wish to increase their knowledge about modeling.

For myself I think the use of both is preferred. There are limitations with 3D printing, just as there are with hand skills. In the current environment how to combine the two in the most efficient way will be ideal.
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Old 06-08-2016, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

for me, my 3d printer is just another tool. just like my mill, my lathe, my dremel, and my scroll saw. a complex tool, that requires dedicated knowledge and learning to operate correctly.

i ask a different question: for me, 90% of the parts i "make", whether from bits of wood or metal... or from PLA filament, end up being masters, where i make rubber molds from them, and then cast resin parts. it is those resin parts that end up on the model, not the master... where in your scheme/hierarchy of "scratch-built" do resin cast parts belong?

Last edited by tsenecal; 06-08-2016 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 06-09-2016, 10:10 AM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

Watching the computer ruin industry , clearing away 100's of years of old skills and allowing people with no knowledge or experience into trades they have no business being in, has made me wary of any computer invasion.

To say that making files on a computer is the same as hand making parts is a great example of how the computer thins out , or dilutes the talent required to hand make parts.
There is a dismissive attitude that reveals itself when a computer 'modeler' , 'growing ' parts , is asked if they could do it without the computer.

But on the internet ,as in life now, any one can say whatever they like, there are no repercussions.
I was talking with a goof ,once , who stated "I'm a welder".
I asked ; "What does MIG mean"?
Goof says; " I dunno , I don't need to know"
Metal Inert Gas , the description of the welding process he claims to be capable of.
This is part of the 'legacy' the computer has given us.
The retarded mind set that anyone can do anything without the prerequisite of experience or training.

Typing 'skills' don't impress me!
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Old 06-20-2016, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

I am learning Google SU and 123Design. I know how difficult it is to get efficient at those programs. It takes a lot of hours and practice. No where did I say it was easy to plan and create a file for 3D printing. CAD is another level of computer design I would like to eventually learn. I plan on creating small parts for kits in the future, but not the entire pattern...... ever. For me only, I would consider it 'cheating', because I know the traditional methods. I ONLY consider it 'cheating' if you claim to be scratch-building using 3D printed parts.

I understand it is not cheating to the person who does not know the traditional methods, but will they ever be driven to learn them? Denis Muren stated something similar when interviewed about VFX, "everyone has to learn how to observe things....its so easy to see things on a monitor that we have lost that training on how to observe things. We've learned how to use the tools, but not what we should be doing with them."

What I would say, it is faster to create a truck tire in a 3D design program, but when you have tried to create that same tire in one piece in acetate, styrene, etc. on a lathe, will you understand just how difficult physical model making,sculpting, pattern making is. And just how much a 'tool' 3D printing is.

I just wanted some discussion on the subject, and I think I got that, so thanks for all of the input! I didn't expect a Kenworth to be driven over me.
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Old 06-20-2016, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

I see the use of computer aided printed parts as many do - as just another artistic tool in creating my custom models. It takes just as much skill, if not more, in crafting a part on the computer as it does with your hands - whittled out of soap. There is absolutely nothing easy about 3D printing. The issue here is applying the term "scratch build" as if it were some canonical definition of Amish methods of miniature building before the age of electricity. What 3D printing does is increase the accuracy of parts you use to build your model. It is not magic, nor is it witchcraft, nor is it cheating your goal in crafting your vision in the best way you can. Perhaps the word "scratch-build" is archaic and should only be applied to models build by hands with non-electric tools, because my cordless Dremel may be considered "cheating" by grinding off excess plastic flash more easily that with a hand-file. Perhaps the term "custom-built" is better applied to everything else not made with mass-produced components.

I think I hear a truck headed my way...
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Old 06-21-2016, 11:24 AM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

Personally speaking ramble ahead.

The term 'scratch built' in relation to scale models is a term defined by the individual using it at any given time. I have used and continue to use what I deem the best thing in terms of time, money and effort invested to turn out what is required.

If that's starting with several lumps of timber and paper plans because that would be the best start for a subject then okedoke. If the main bulk is 3D printed parts I've done myself then also okedoke.

For me and I can only speak for me, I apply the term 'totally scratch built model' to this little bit of scale gorgeousness:
http://www.toolchest-site.com/5/will...re-tool-chest/

If a model has off the shelf/after market/whatever you wanna call 'em bits then to me, it's a partial scratch build if the bulk has been fabricated using non commercially made items other than say, sheet materials as an example.
What percentage that 'partial' is, is up to the modeler when it's all finished.
What opinion others may have is up to them.

I don't consider the 3D printing thing to be any less or more difficult than physically making the item with my bare hands. Both are potentially difficult but in different ways and sometimes require differing skills and I can speak from some small experience in both areas.

Like a lot of things in life, it's all subjective methinks so I don't think there's a catch all definition but I could well be wrong.

Couldn't tell you anything from a judging perspective as that's up to the individual judge and the rules they go by...whatever they may be.

Or to put all the above another way...
By all means give a fuck about the definition of the term scratch built if you want. But in the end, does it really, seriously matter that much if it's a fuckin' cool model?
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Old 06-21-2016, 11:50 AM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raytheon View Post
But in the end, does it really, seriously matter that much if it's a fuckin' cool model?

HAH!!! Nailed it!

My take on it is that when you scratch build, you are making something that hasn't previously existed out of whatever materials are available to you. There is more work and skill involved than just building a kit or doing a simple kitbash. Lots of technical skills.

It also takes a LOT of imagination and ingenuity.

If a person can sit down at a computer, fire up their 3D software, and design their own model - whether it is a complete model or just parts - and print it/them out into usable items, then I consider that a scratchbuild. It is still a lot of work, just in a different medium than most of us are accustomed to.

There's a line there though - if someone just downloads a mesh and prints it, then no. That isn't a scratchbuild, it's just kit assembly.
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Old 06-22-2016, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cat View Post
My take on it is that when you scratch build, you are making something that hasn't previously existed out of whatever materials are available to you.
Werd!
And I'm gonna keep doing that, labouring away with my sheets of balsa, breathing in sawdust, slavishly filling and sanding and filling and sanding... you get the picture.
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Old 06-23-2016, 09:32 AM
Mark Yungblut Mark Yungblut is offline
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

I think that the terminology needs to be changed. I look at traditional "scratch building" more along the line of "hand crafted".

I also agree that if you just print out someone else's 3D file it's not custom made/ scratch built. I think the same is true for taking someone's 3D model and modifying it to suit your needs. That is akin to kit-bashing...
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Old 06-23-2016, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

Dave, Mark, good point on whether the file is a download or the like and now I think about it, I agree.

In that spirit, the 'scratch build' bit has been removed from title on my site Viper MkII WIP pages as I do believe it's a fair assessment gentlemen and one does believe in fair play...well to a point but ya get me drift
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Old 06-23-2016, 01:30 PM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

what do you guys think of this?

i have a part of a model that i want to duplicate at a different size, for a different model. I have the original part, and using that to take dimensions, but the new part is built by me, after scaling the original part.

a concrete example: 50 caliber gun on a 1/72 scale tank. using it as a "model", i build a new 50 caliber gun at 1/35 scale. what have i just done? would it be any different if i made that new part using a block of wood and some brass, or a block of aluminum and a mill, or my 3d cad software and a 3d printer?

discuss
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Old 06-23-2016, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

So I Skipped the into thread and made this my first post so some of you may know me from other boards while others will not know me from Adam.
Now to my point.
I agree that 'scratch building' implies making a model of something from raw, unformed material.

The 'scratch' part implies using parts that have not been formed by industrial processes and sold in retail outlets (brick & mortar, or online). (unformed sheet stock, tubes etc; patterned, or not is exempt from this. Domes, wheels, photo etch and the like are not -- this part is a bit dicey, I grant you)

Given that we move on to the techniques employed in the 'building' part. Before the advent of power tools the only way to go about this process was to use hand tools to create everything (granted I don't think there was a robust "Hobby" of model building at that time, but regardless the point is clear.

Using only hand tools to create a scale model engenders certain limits as to what is possible as far as fineness of detail-to-scale is concerned and how long achieving the finest level of detail allowed by that method would take.

The introduction of power tools and other more technologically advanced processes (Casting of multiple parts in resin moulds) allows for the threshold of fineness of detail-to -scale and the time it takes to achieve them to get better (more and finer detail in less time. The use of power tools and other processes does require a different or widened skill set than simply using hand tools.

Does this make the product less scratch built? I say no.

Now we come to 3D printing. Again with a new technique we get an increase in the fineness of detail-to-scale over the older method as well as (depending on certain variables) a shorter amount of time required to achieve that. We also have a new skill set involved. This is where there appears to be the most dramatic difference.

When moving from hand tools to power tools etc. the makers hands were still in contact with the material, with this new technique that is not the case. with 3D printing the maker sculpts, builds, creates a virtual simulacrum of the part or model which is then manifested into tactile reality by a machine (CNC, SLS, Stereo-lithography etc.). The skill set involved here is so vastly different from the older techniques as to appear to be of a completely different kind - not just a of a different degree.

So the question now becomes does this change in technique, where the makers hands need never come into contact with the material, change the nature of the designation of the product of that process?

Well certainly if one assumes that for the product to be considered 'scratch-built' the maker must have a certain skill set which involves knowing how to use tools in their hands to manipulate raw materials into a finished product then the answer is YES. Products of 3D printing, which makes no requirements on the maker to understand anything about how to manipulate tools to shape raw materials into a finished product, would not fit into the category 'scratch built'.

If on the other hand you see that creating a computer simulacrum of a model or part of a model, where no per-existing shapes or likeness existed, is simply using a different, but no less valid, skill set to achieve the end product then the answer is NO. The end product of the process of 3D printing, where the maker has created the computer image from nothing, is indeed 'scratch built'.

The difference comes down to how you value (or don't value) the skill set needed execute the techniques employed.

(how's that for muddying the water!)
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Last edited by chas; 06-23-2016 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 06-29-2016, 08:08 AM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

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Old 06-29-2016, 08:14 AM
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Default Re: A true 'scratch' build?

I agree about the loss of traditional modeling skills. I see a lot of patterns and resin kits that were 3D printed. Seldom are they properly finished or cleaned up. It shows that people working on them to not posses the fundamental model skills required to do it the hand crafted way. If I can see evidence of the printing process on a model it immediately takes away from the overall aesthetic of the final piece.

That being said I feel it's a natural evolution of the hobby and it should be embraced with a level of caution.
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