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  #16  
Old 07-19-2011, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

OH, WELL... Let me tell you!

A grain of salt is a grain of salt... it matters little who
it is served to... however, when I talk as a critic, I am
not saying that I would be able to do better, I am only
speaking of the shortcomings that I see. My models are
much worse than most of the work I have seen
out there... and deserving of the same criticism that
I may have given others!

Now, having said that, there are those that believe that
the critic's merit is only as good as long as it comes from
someone better than themselves. I say horseshit. It does
not take a perfect modeler to make an observation, huge
ego's usually make for ignorance.

But the point that I make in this thread is that I don't really
have a "off" button for my version of the truth as I see it,
and I would like to know, and perhaps tell all of you, where
I stand- some other forums are not as open, or shall I say,
"adult" rated. (Not really sure if that is because of the
membership or because of the host) One thing I do know is
that modeling of a certain high caliber can only come from
adults. Sure a teenager can do some nice work, but, by the
time one makes it up to a level of experience that shows
real merit, guess what, they are an adult!
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Last edited by AbsoluteSciFi; 07-19-2011 at 04:08 PM.
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  #17  
Old 07-19-2011, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteSciFi View Post
OH, WELL... Let me tell you!

A grain of salt is a grain of salt... it matters little who
it is served to... however, when I talk as a critic, I am
not saying that I would be able to do better, I am only
speaking of the shortcomings that I see. My models are
much worse than most of the work I have seen
out there... and deserving of the same criticism that
I may have given others!

Now, having said that, there are those that believe that
the critic's merit is only as good as long as it comes from
someone better than themselves. I say horseshit. It does
not take a perfect modeler to make an observation, huge
ego's usually make for ignorance.

But the point that I make in this thread is that I don't really
have a "off" button for my version of the truth as I see it,
and I would like to know, and perhaps tell all of you, where
I stand- some other forums are not as open, or shall I say,
"adult" rated. (Not really sure if that is because of the
membership or becuase of the host)

While I have no problem with you as you just described yourself I can only say that it's still my experience that most folks still don't want true critiquing. But having said that I acknowledge that's why there is a specific category here labeld to invite criticism and the builder has that choice right up front when he posts his work.

IMHO even some of the folks forewarned still don't want true criticism though.

Now on a different line of thought- I still invite comments and criticism of anything I post, whatever category. However if I think someone is just speaking hypothetically about how something should have been done different or anyone who wants to actually argue that I did it wrong just because it wasn't how they thought it should have been done- well, I also always reserve the right to tell them to go fuck themselves.


Oh, and I still mostly will not critique any one else's work- because after all, who the fuck am I? Just a duck.
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  #18  
Old 07-19-2011, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

Critiquing is great, if you're truly able to take it on board. What I'd like is constructive criticism - tell me it's fucked, but then tell me how to fix it.
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  #19  
Old 07-19-2011, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 777 View Post
Critiquing is great, if you're truly able to take it on board. What I'd like is constructive criticism - tell me it's fucked, but then tell me how to fix it.

Exactly- and that's why it does matter if the criticizer can actually do a better job himself. Anyone can read of a technique but if you offer one up as the "fix" then be prepared to follow that tip up with how you, yourself made it work. Probably not within the normal definition of "constructive criticism" but it is within my definition of "helping".

Now I'm going to raise the stakes in this game a lil bit-

That's another reason that I do not critique. It's a lot of fucking work and time to compose a post that I might hope to be helpful in someone trying or polishing a technique. Not that I am that lazy, not exactly. But I post all of my techniques during my WIPs. And, not that everyone should necessarily acquaint themselves with anything and everything I've ever posted. But hey, I've already covered that ground and done that work. OTOH, something within me feels quite squeamish about referring anyone to one of my own threads as an example of how to do something. You either stumble upon and read it for yourself, absorb whatever you choose, or you don't? Who am I to say it was ever worth looking it?

Did that make any sense to explain my personal outlook or did it just sound snooty?
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  #20  
Old 07-19-2011, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

Snooty sense

I guess that also means that people who do take the time to critique correctly and with positive advice should not be dismissed or taken offense to, too quickly.
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  #21  
Old 07-20-2011, 04:15 AM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteSciFi View Post
OH, WELL... Let me tell you!

A grain of salt is a grain of salt... it matters little who
it is served to... however, when I talk as a critic, I am
not saying that I would be able to do better, I am only
speaking of the shortcomings that I see. My models are
much worse than most of the work I have seen
out there... and deserving of the same criticism that
I may have given others!

Now, having said that, there are those that believe that
the critic's merit is only as good as long as it comes from
someone better than themselves. I say horseshit. It does
not take a perfect modeler to make an observation, huge
ego's usually make for ignorance.

But the point that I make in this thread is that I don't really
have a "off" button for my version of the truth as I see it,
and I would like to know, and perhaps tell all of you, where
I stand- some other forums are not as open, or shall I say,
"adult" rated. (Not really sure if that is because of the
membership or because of the host) One thing I do know is
that modeling of a certain high caliber can only come from
adults. Sure a teenager can do some nice work, but, by the
time one makes it up to a level of experience that shows
real merit, guess what, they are an adult!
RI was founded on the premise of what no other boards had the balls to do: the ability to speak your mind and be able to be honest......not just the usual "good job" or "nice work" bullshit that you get at a lot of other places because it's what rules dictate.
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  #22  
Old 07-21-2011, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

Wait a minute now.....

Y'all are totally missing the paint chip thing when it comes to spacecraft, especially something like a Viper. Most of those real things would be painted with 100 mile an hour paint.

A Viper is doing more than that at launch.

That 100 mile an hour paint's gonna chip. It's lucky we get to see paint on these things at all.

See, they don't think about this kinda stuff when they paint spaceships. If they did, they would AT LEAST use the same kinda paint like on a Top Fuel Dragster. It would hold on till three times that 100 mile an hour crap.

Rob.
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  #23  
Old 07-21-2011, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle-1 View Post
Wait a minute now.....

Y'all are totally missing the paint chip thing when it comes to spacecraft, especially something like a Viper. Most of those real things would be painted with 100 mile an hour paint.

A Viper is doing more than that at launch.

That 100 mile an hour paint's gonna chip. It's lucky we get to see paint on these things at all.

See, they don't think about this kinda stuff when they paint spaceships. If they did, they would AT LEAST use the same kinda paint like on a Top Fuel Dragster. It would hold on till three times that 100 mile an hour crap.

Rob.
I've been out of the trade and don't have a clue what they currently use, but, back in the eighties the predominance of teams seemed to be going with Dupont Imron. A two part enamel commonly then referred to as an "Epoxy Paint". It WAS tough. Well, it was also used on commercial aircraft back then and fire trucks and the sort. It was the toughest shit you could get for a good decade or more.

Now I don't have a clue what today's military uses? BUT, in times of war from what I have read it was not the "cutting edge" paints that the government paid for. Hell, our warships in WWII were sent out with good supplies of not only "standard colors" but also basic hues and tints to mix up a batch while on tour and tours weren't expected to even last a year yet those ships needed constant touch-ups and repaints. Some of the greys/blues used were notorious for fading into an unrecognizable shade within a month of service?

So I have no clue what the future would really be like but as a former auto painter with a general interest in all things paint- I think shit's gonna get fucked up!
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  #24  
Old 07-22-2011, 07:18 AM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
I generally don't criticize because experience has taught me that even with a signed waiver, most folks still don't want to hear it.
That's why we now have the Critique section.... if a person has too thin of a skin to accept constructive criticism, then he or she better not post there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
Exactly- and that's why it does matter if the criticizer can actually do a better job himself. Anyone can read of a technique but if you offer one up as the "fix" then be prepared to follow that tip up with how you, yourself made it work. Probably not within the normal definition of "constructive criticism" but it is within my definition of "helping".
Bingo! If I put something of mine in that section and one of you guys spot an issue, by all means point it out. If you know how I can improve a certain technique, then I'm all ears.

What I do NOT want to hear is "I heard about this technique for doing x, you should try that." Wrong answer. If you haven't experienced it yourself, then you really don't have any license to pass that info on.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespeed View Post
RI was founded on the premise of what no other boards had the balls to do: the ability to speak your mind and be able to be honest......not just the usual "good job" or "nice work" bullshit that you get at a lot of other places because it's what rules dictate.
This is true.
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  #25  
Old 07-22-2011, 07:39 AM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

most of the talk here is focused on the feeling of one person with regards to the opinion of another, for me the critique section seemed a place where you could post without the need to append "IMO" to every damn statement

my feelings have never been hurt by any information put forth - only by information withheld
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  #26  
Old 07-22-2011, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteSciFi View Post
How far is TOO far when honesty is concerned?
We all want (for the most part) to get better at modeling,
but sometimes a post has an abrasive quality when
being totally frank about facts. I am guilty of this from
time to time, but for the most part, I try to provide
a rational for the reality I am bringing to the table.
This is how WIP section's description reads:

Finished or WIP Projects
Tired of getting "nice job" in your threads? Feel like you are not being challenged to improve your builds? Post them here for brutally honest critiques from our members. If you don't take criticism well, don't post here!!

When a person reads that, its like open season
on amateur build day. What limits are there if any?
I know that when I have gone too far, but MY limits
are often far beyond what some would say are tolerable...
even though the disclaimer says "If you don't take
criticism well, don't post here!!"
I think you've gone too far when you feel your posted comments are going to incite a response from the modeler (or other forum participants reading the thread) in the same tone and manner you put out there.

I think a person had a good handle on the response before hitting the Return Key on the keyboard, and decides whether or not it is worth it to do so.

Personally, it does matter a great deal to me when a person posts feedback of any nature. I admit openly that it does matter a great deal to me too when the poster knows and has demonstrated that they are a competent modeler in the genre being discussed, and has posted work of their own for discussion/scrutiny.

To me, a critique section invites modelers of all levels to participate, to be sure - BUT - it is not a one-way street. You step up to post your commentary, you should expect an interchange of ideas, thoughts and commentary. Hell, YOU do not know what the modeler has/had cookin' in their brain while working on the model. If you don't expect the modeler to take offense at your observations, then don't take offense when the modeler responds to your commentary. Just as you feel your observations are valid, well-founded and well-intentioned regardless of your modeling experience or subject matter knowledge - then - equally accept the fact that the modeler of the subject under discussion had/has the same conviction(s) about what they're doing too. They posted it to share and open up avenues for discussion in the first place.

Comments about being "thin-skinned" feels like the "elitist" tag placed on modelers - totally dependant on a certain point of view. I've seen a range of what's labeled "thin-skinned" and understand the tag just like "elitist", but a truly Adult Discussion Forum doesn't need to point it out. Just like you shouldn't need to post your resume before you comment, neither should you hold that "thin-skinned" lightning bolt in the other hand when you receive feedback on your comment(s).
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  #27  
Old 07-22-2011, 11:14 PM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

I don't know if they use any special paint on commercial aircraft, but those things are covered in paint chips, especially the nose, leading edges, all the usual places you'd expect them. Peeling usually comes about from some sort of leaking hydraulic fluid and what would you call it... Some sort of blistering or deformation appears near exhausts, engine, anti-ice, air-conditioning packs etc. Future 'superpaint' - sure why not!
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  #28  
Old 07-23-2011, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

Hamburg. Passenger aircraft have to be beautiful. In order to bring aircraft to a high gloss, are costly and time consuming painting process in action. A new system comes with far fewer layers of paint and also promises a better life - a world first comes from Hamburg.

Aircraft coatings must be durable. In flight they are exposed to freezing cold of minus 50 to minus 60 degrees on the tarmac, it may be 50, 60 degrees hot. The outer layers must be flexible (the wing of a large airplane swings at the tips of up to three meters), this stain-resistant and easy to clean. The paint and the environment's sake, they should contain little solvent as possible and no toxins.

"We paint our system for six to seven years have developed, including three years with Airbus," says Andreas Ossenkopf Mankiewicz from the company. The medium-sized enterprises (over 800 employees), with headquarters in William Castle has been producing more than 100 years, varnishes, and for the aircraft industry, though not yet for the outer skin of the machines. In order to break into that market, a whole new technology was needed.

Conventional coatings are applied in two, sometimes three shifts per color. The main surface is usually white or gray, depending on the design of the individual airlines will be more spot colors applied. At each color change drying times must be from eight to twelve hours. Can leave to a machine with multi-colored regalia, the paint shop, pass by several days - this caused a halt heavy costs for the aircraft maintenance and the airline.

The new paint system comes with each composed of a layer, depending on color, because the paints contain more pigment and clear it still have good flow properties - "this is due to a particular molecular composition of the binder," says Ossenkopf. When a color change has to wait only two hours until the freshly applied paint layer is dry. Here too, the novel formulation of the binder, the main role.

Unlike conventional methods, in the end, however, an additional layer necessary. A clear coat protects, similar to modern car body paints, the paint layers from UV radiation and provides the high gloss that is extremely durable, so the manufacturer. The clearcoat also creates a smoother surface that is easy to clean less polluted and more.

These advantages also sees Dr. Matthias Panten, head of aircraft painting at Lufthansa Technik in Hamburg. "The color layer, the so-called base coat covers, very good, so that each color creates a thinner layer. This saves weight and makes the coating more flexible." However, Lufthansa Technik has not calculated the saving in weight, because the differences in layer thicknesses range from a few hundredths of a millimeter and hang in practice also depends on the painter, the new product handling is maximized. The potential to save some weight percentages in future, be available but in any case, attested by Lufthansa expert.

More hope builds Panten on the durability of the paint... "Currently, the machines every five to seven years, re-painted This all color layers, often the primer is removed, the system with the clear coat could run seven to nine years if the practice confirms this prediction, we could in the course of a life of 30 aircraft, 40 years a save or two finishes. This reduces costs and helps the environment. "

Lufthansa is testing this year, the new coating on two short-haul and two long-haul aircraft, including the first A380 to the airline. His rudder was in May, the blue-yellow crane sign, the hull is painted in December.

The four machines are new buildings. "Lufthansa Technik is to certify the system for repainting," said Panter. KLM, the Dutch competition is a step further: they applied the Wilhelmsburger high-tech paint already in used machines, are already contributing a total of 23 aircraft, KLM Hamburger colors, but not red and white.

This combination of colors adorns the first jet with Mankiewicz coatings. He is in operation since December 2007 and comes from the other end of the world: a time of new Airbus 330, the Australian airline Qantas. Airbus celebrated the painting as a "key element to build more environmentally friendly flight course and increase eco-efficiency" - a real gem
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  #29  
Old 07-23-2011, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

You win
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Old 07-23-2011, 03:37 AM
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Default Re: How Far Enough?

that was clear or not

beautifully painted models boring

Totall dirty and filthy, the better one
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